Hardways

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D. Mac:

I was a casino in California playing craps (with the cards) and the following occurred. I hit a 5 dollar hard 6 and parlayed the winnings. The stick asked me if I wanted it working on the comeout and I said yes, and it's ALWAY'S working. The stick and the box repeated "always working". He put the "on" chip on my bet and left it there. Two or Three passes later, I hit the hard six. The box tells me that he was going to pay it but "technically" I was supposed to tell the stick on each come out, that my hard six was working. He made it seem like he was doing me a favor. Is it a requirement to call your hardways "on" if you tell the dealer that your hardways are always working?
California craps is the indian casino's way of getting around the law says that they can only have card games or slot machines. On the craps layout, they shuffle 6 cards and place them in squares numbered 1 to 6. The player then throws the dice and the numbers on the dice match up with the number on the layout. The dealt card in the layout determines the outcome of the roll and the game moves forward. If you roll a double number, the card that is in the numbered area on the layout is the "hardway" winner. Example: In my situation in the paragraph above, the player rolled two aces and because the
3 was in the number 1 box on the layout, I won the bet. Question: Is therean advantage to be had if the 3 or 6 card was placed in the 2 or 5 box on the layout? I was thinking that you would get paid 9 to 1 and there would be less chances of rolling a "soft" 4 or 10 and would improve your chances of hitting a hard 6 or 8. . I'm certainly no math wiz but it made sense to my warped mind after playing this warped game.
Thanks for any help you might offer,
Danny in California

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Cymbal Man Freq. :

Looks like "pre-setting the dice" is quite useless there in California. Now is this a game of "6 card Monty" too?
If the "On" chip was on your bet, the Dealer is the one with the problem. You just remind him to pay you.

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alan:

[nq:1]Looks like "pre-setting the dice" is quite useless there in California. Now is this a game of "6 card Monty" too? If the "On" chip was on your bet, the Dealer is the one with the problem. You just remind him to pay you.[/nq]
I agree... if the "on" button was "on," you were "on."

Cards replace dice in California because current law says dice cannot be thrown.
As you know, Prop 70 on the November ballot will legalize dice games, including traditional dice, in California.
The Attorney General says current "craps" games in Calif are illegal even though dice are not thrown... Most casinos deal the cards (ace thru 6) from a shoe.
I have not heard of your version of craps, with dice used to pull cards, and while card-craps is actually a violation of the law, your version is a real stretch.
Thbe world will change Jan 1st, however, because Prop 70 is expected to pass.
cheers, alan

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Alan Shank:

[nq:1]I was a casino in California playing craps (with the cards) and the following occurred. I hit a 5 dollar ... Is it a requirement to call your hardways "on" if you tell the dealer that your hardways are always working?[/nq]
It seems to me that, as long as the "ON" button was on your bet, you're covered. However, even if they repeat, "always working," it behooves you to make damn sure the "ON" button is always there on the comeout.
[nq:1]California craps is the indian casino's way of getting around the law says that they can only have card games ... you roll a double number, the card that is in the numbered area on the layout is the "hardway" winner.[/nq]
Interesting. This is yet another slightly different method. At Colusa, they use two sets of six cards, in blue and red boxes. There is a blue die and a red one, and the red die points to the red card, etc. The only difference is your casino gets away with just one set of six cards.

Example: In my
[nq:1]situation in the paragraph above, the player rolled two aces and because the 3 was in the number 1 box ... 8. . I'm certainly no math wiz but it made sense to my warped mind after playing this warped game.[/nq]
It makes no difference which card is in which box. At Colusa, they shuffle the cards around after each roll; that way, any "precision shooter" would not know what numbers to shoot for.

The new Cache Creek casino, which is closer to me than Colusa, uses a 36-card deck, each card having a picture of a dice combination. They use two of these decks and a shuffling machine. I think it is slower and more prone to problems, because of the mechanical device. Cheers,
Alan Shank

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Alan Shank:

[nq:1]Cards replace dice in California because current law says dice cannot be thrown.[/nq]
As usual, alan, you are wrong. The dice ARE thrown. The law says that dice cannot be used to determine the result, so the dice are used to "point" to cards, which then determine the result.
[nq:1]As you know, Prop 70 on the November ballot will legalize dice games, including traditional dice, in California. The Attorney General says current "craps" games in Calif are illegal even though dice are not thrown...[/nq]
Here again, the dice ARE thrown, in every system that has been described on this NG.
[nq:1]I have not heard of your version of craps, with dice used to pull cards, and while card-craps is actually a violation of the law, your version is a real stretch.[/nq]
If you've been reading this NG, you have heard of a very similar version to this, because I described it in detail in some posts a few months ago. Colusa, CA uses two sets of six cards, in red or blue rectangles, and a red and blue pair of dice. The dice are thrown, just like in Nevada, but the outcome of the dice selects the cards that are turned over, which then determine the result.
[nq:1]Thbe world will change Jan 1st, however, because Prop 70 is expected to pass.[/nq]
If it does, it will be interesting to see what happens at casinos like Colusa and Cache Creek, which have invested in special tables for "California Craps." I suspect they will probably switch. Cheers,
Alan Shank

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Agent777:

[nq:1]It seems to me that, as long as the "ON" button was on your bet, you're covered.[/nq]
Maybe the dealer thought that after one roll it became a "NO" button.

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Steve Fry:

[nq:1]Here again, the dice ARE thrown, in every system that has been described on this NG.[/nq]
Alan
Dice are not thrown in ALL California tribal casinos. Some, like Barona Valley Ranch described above, use only six cards to determine the dice faces. After each seven-out the six cards are shuffled around and redealt, face up. For a true precision shooter, he would still be able to ply his trade; if he could figure out which die faces to put on axis such that they presumably land less frequently.

However, Casino Morongo uses no dice at all. They have two shoes of cards (ace through six). The box man uses both hands to flip cards from each shoe simultaneously to reveal the "throw" of the dice as two face-up cards. This game goes much faster than the one with dice, and if you look away for a second the cards can get flipped and your money gone before you know it.

I like the anticipation of the dice coming to a stop and the action of the throw to bring my attention back to the craps layout.

Steve F.

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Alan Shank:

[nq:2]Here again, the dice ARE thrown, in every system that has been described on this NG.[/nq]
[nq:1]Dice are not thrown in ALL California tribal casinos. Some, like Barona Valley Ranch described above, use only six cards to determine the dice faces. After each seven-out the six cards are shuffled around and redealt, face up.[/nq]
Interesting. At Colusa, the 12 cards are face down.
[nq:1]For a true precision shooter, he would still be able to ply his trade; if he could figure out which die faces to put on axis such that they presumably land less frequently.[/nq]
I wonder why they put the cards face up?
[nq:1]However, Casino Morongo uses no dice at all. They have two shoes of cards (ace through six). The box man ... if you look away for a second the cards can get flipped and your money gone before you know it.[/nq]
Are the dealt cards replaced and the decks re-shuffled after each "throw?" If not, this is like blackjack, where the probabilities change as the deck is depleted. I wouldn't touch that game.
[nq:1]I like the anticipation of the dice coming to a stop and the action of the throw to bring my attention back to the craps layout.[/nq]
With the methods in use at Colusa and Cache Creek, you have the attention on the dice, but then it has to be transferred to the cards. Many people see the point rolled on the dice, but are then disappointed when the cards show a seven, or vice versa. You just have to train yourself to wait for the cards before you get excited or disappointed. It takes about five minutes if you are not brain-dead.

If I had my "druthers," I'd play regular dice, but Cache Creek is about
20 minutes away, Colusa about 45 and Reno is 3 hours or so, and I'm notgoing to drive 3 hours, play, then drive home, so it means paying for lodging as well. It's an easy choice.
Thanks for the additional info.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

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Gregg Cattanach :

[nq:2]However, Casino Morongo uses no dice at all. They have ... get flipped and your money gone before you know it.[/nq]
[nq:1]Are the dealt cards replaced and the decks re-shuffled after each "throw?" If not, this is like blackjack, where the probabilities change as the deck is depleted. I wouldn't touch that game.[/nq]
With some effort, (assuming they use a depleting shoe), you could come up with a counting system for this game and possible make better choices of place numbers to bet based on the remaining cards in the shoe. Without working out some counting system, though, it would be a game to avoid, as the odds would be changing and your betting wouldn't compensate for that.

Gregg C.

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Bob R:

[nq:1]Are the dealt cards replaced and the decks re-shuffled after each "throw?" If not, this is like blackjack, where the probabilities change as the deck is depleted. I wouldn't touch that game.[/nq]
This is a fascinating philosophical division on this newsgroup. Any game I play I'm looking for a (legal) angle to improve my odds. I would much rather play a game with a hidden angle (as long as I was pretty sure it wasn't being used by the house to cheat me) that I could figure out, it's like a puzzle. Worst case, as long as the deck isn't stacked, you're still looking at a random game over the long run, right?
That is certainly true in blackjack, anyway. Your advantage varies greatly with the distribution of the remaining cards, but if you play through it all averages out and you're left with the house edge.

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Hardways

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