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[nq:2]Actually you are wrong. There is some luck in chess. ... in this game for you to so confidently blabber so?[/nq]
[nq:1]Or an opponent makes a blunder (for whatever reason) that he would makeonly a tiny fraction of the time in that same situation. Isn't that luck?[/nq]
A outright blunder in chess can be a hard thing to pin down. Sometimes there are psychological factors and time consideration that can increase or decrease the chances of someone blundering. I do consider this to be part of the luck factor in the game. Last year a "b" class player defeated a grandmaster at a simultaneous event here in Winnipeg. Though the "b" class player played a solid game in an obscure gambit line..his only real chance for victory was for the GM to blunder at some point. That is exactly what happened, and I don't think many people will be of the opinion that the "b" class player "was more skillful" than the GM.

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[nq:2]Or an opponent makes a blunder (for whatever reason) that he would makeonly[/nq]
[nq:1]a[/nq]
[nq:2]tiny fraction of the time in that same situation. Isn't that luck?[/nq]
[nq:1]You can't say that. Your opponent makes that blunder presumably because he lacks skill in that area.[/nq]
Right..so Grandmaster Dmitry Tyomkin's gross lack of skill was exploited by 1600 cfc ("b" class) player Carl Pottinger last year. Again, I ask you..what exactly are your qualifications in chess. Do you know the first thing about what serious chess entails?
[nq:1]To say that your opponent's mistakes are a factor of luck is to say skill is luck. Therefore, there would be no game of skill and all games would be purely luck.[/nq]
For starters..you need to add the word "blunder" as it is used in chess circles to your vocabulary. The words "blunder" and "mistake" are not synonymous. You clearly do not know anything about chess and are only making yourself look like a complete jackass with these absurd all or nothing statements. There is a big difference between someone outplaying an opponent for an entire game and blundering a wholesale piece at a crucial part of the game by way of oversight to go on to lose, and someone who makes conceptual mistakes and is outplayed until resignation is necessary.

JMR

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[nq:2]a You can't say that. Your opponent makes that blunder presumably becausehe lacks skill in that area.[/nq]
[nq:1]Not true. Let's take golf for example. You are in a playoff and your opponent holes out his shot from ... but he doesn't even know it at the time he makes it. He might never know it. That is luck.[/nq]
Exactly..that is how the expression "stumbled into a good game" arose. Obviously if there is a great difference of skill between the two players, the luck factor becomes pretty tiny..but there is a clear manifestation of some luck in the game when the players are more closely matched. That is why serious chess matches are comprised of many games. This gives the truely stronger player the opportunity to weather the luck and outplay his opponent in the long-term.

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[nq:2]I'm starting to think that the technical aspects of the ... goodnerves and some ability where applied psychology is concerned. JMR[/nq]
[nq:1]This is an accurate conclusion. The mechanics and technical skills are fairly easy to acquire. Despite this, the vast majority ... when you come up against a reallysuperior opponent in chess or backgammon. -Marc "Pay him... pay that man his money"[/nq]
Thank you for this post Marc. This was the sort of response I was hoping for. Nice to know that not everyone in this newsgroup is an idiot.

JMR

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[nq:1]I have to take two exceptions to your statement.[/nq]
Excellent post rbdavis3, thank you!
My thoughts on backgammon, which concievably has a comparable luck to skill ratio as poker, are similair to yours on poker, in that opponents almost never really know when they are being outplayed. That is the reason I was able to make a living from the game..without travelling..for many years when the game was popular here. If a guy I just took $200 from in a session knew he was outclassed and not just outrolled..do you think I would get him again for another session? In chess however, I would tend to agree with Marc's description of "feeling" the skill.

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[nq:2]relatively insignificant and that it's mostly a game requiring goodnerves and some ability where applied psychology is concerned. JMR[/nq]
[nq:1]I think you would make a real good poker tournament pro. You certainly have the arrogance for it. jarrett40[/nq]
I will take that as a compliment jarrett40, but I just started serious study of poker and do not have any illusions of becoming anything more than a competitive amateur at some point. If I can take the game further than that...wonderful..but I'm certainly not looking at poker as a new career any time soon. I am trying to garner insights and wisdom from experienced players that are posting in this newsgroup. Do you fit that bill jarrett? If so, please share some of your knowledge.
JMR

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[nq:1]that's insane! sooo many people hate you in the chess world, and now you come here and within ONLY TWO DAYS manage to get everyone on RGP to think you're a little *** as well? what's your secret?[/nq]
It's called TALENT!
JMR

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[nq:2]A quick goodle search of your name answers everything I needed to know. Real popular guy, ain't you? http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Jason+Repa [/nq]
[nq:1]Thanks for the link, Dave ... it was easier to wait for you to do it thanto do it myself ... but you should have recognized this guy for what he was when he first arrived. Then again, I guess you did.[/nq]
Your names "da pickle" and "whoareume" make it painstakingly clear that you two bozos are just a couple of know-nothing juveniled delinquents with way too much time on your hands. If your trolling keeps up, I will have to speak to your fathers about restricting the amount of time you get on the family computer.
JMR

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[nq:2]You're the mindless troll kiddo. You've made it patently obvious thatyou're just a punkass that knows nothing at all about poker...[/nq]
[nq:1]Oops. You've just made it patently obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. Peg[/nq]
Peg, learn how to spell (PLONK) before you blabber about doing it.

JMR

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[nq:1]There must be more luck involved in both Backgammon and Chess for you to make a living off it juding by some of your stupid comments:[/nq]
Nah, it's just that I got pretty good at sizing up insolent little punkasses like you and the other two delinquents in very short order from my pool hall days. You're precisely the kind of idiot I LOVE to get in front of me for some money play. That's how the bills get paid.
[nq:1]1. > You ask about low limit hold em, then bring up Chris Moneymaker???[/nq]
Again we run into a moron that can't handle more than one idea in his brain at one time. Did you get hit real hard on the head at some point in your youth Mikey?
[nq:2]Yeah, you have a problem commenting on two forms of the same game in one[/nq]
[nq:1]post??? Your subject line states "more specifically", yet your key point of reference was a no-limit game.[/nq]
I made a reference to Chris Moneymaker's (no-limit) hold em sucess as this game is even more skill intensive than the low-limit variety of the game. Therefore, if an amatuer can come out of the blue and win the world's most prestigeous poker event in no-limit..what does that say about the luck factor in a low-limit game. Understand the point now? Have you always required people to explain things to you in such a way that a toddler can grasp? Geeesh!?!
[nq:1]2. So now lets talk about your "tough guy blabbing" comment. Sure he was a little cheeky in his opening ... who you deem to be lessintelligent than you, and now you want some sort of affirmation that you were unlucky.[/nq]
Actually, you know nothing at all about me Mikey, and I am one of the least likely to ever get hustled at anything. I am painstakenly honest about my limitations at things. I've played better backgammon players, and I've played better chess players. I have no trouble admitting when I'm the underdog. This approach is what has enabled me to make strength gains in the things that I do.
FYI, I played in a small stakes (2-4) home game recently (not yesterday, but 3 nights ago) and actually won a small amount of money..and in my opinion I WAS LUCKY to do it. I think I was probably the weakest player there, and I was certainly the least experienced. So much for your career as a profiler! LOL!
[nq:1]So if you want an answer to your question, in my mind poker is acombination of three things: balls, brains ... it, in turn, affects the first two. Themay you play all three is what differentiates the men from the boys.[/nq]
So tell me..do you bring your sucker and bib with you to the casinos as well, or just to the home games you play in?
JMR

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RE: How much skill is there really in poker, more specifically, Texas holdem (low-limit) page 6

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