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Played card craps at casino morongoThis is a discussion thread · 20 replies MoneyLA: This was Saturday night, it is the Indian casino west of Palm Springs and about an hour and fifteen minute drive east of Los Angeles.My first time playing card craps, though I did visit the casino a few days after it was started but arrived too late on a weekday night and the table was closed then. now, they have two tables and one operates all night. during peak time saturday, until about 2am both tables had a ten dollar minimum and a friendly and competant crew. it was enjoyable. same 3,4,5 times odds as the strip in vegas, same payout, but you pay the vig up front when you buy the 4 and ten. props are limited to $100 and I believe $100 was the maximum on thehard ways though I never say anyone bet more than $5 on the hardways or props. game moves very quickly because there are no delays with dice, no dice going off table, no delays with shooters, etc. about the cards: two shoes, one blue and one black, and they shuffle the cards after the shoe is played about one-quarter through. the shuffle is made after a 7-out so no "hot roll" or "hot hand" is distrubed. most memorable moment: a young lady walks up to the table and asks, "who's the shooter?" the table is a regular craps table ready for any change in the law that will allow dice to be thrown in california and as Ive pointed out in articles in www.moredeals.com (look in the money alerts section) and on the news there is both legislation pending for a state constitutional amendment to allow dice, and the Indian tribes are negotiatng with the governor's office to also allow dice. some benefits of card craps: the traditional superstitions of dice no longer exist. you dont have to take your best off when the dice go off the table, you can use the word "seven" because you know the dice won't hear you and you know the cards can't rearrange themselves in the shoe. you don't have to worry about your girlfriend coming back from the mall causing a seven out again because the dice won't see the shopping bags. is it fun? not as fun as throwing. no more fifteen second spinners. no more blaming the dice for being cold. no more setting. no more dice control. it's now a card game. I played for about ninety minutes. there were two good "hands" but ironically I found the table more relaxed than with a regular craps game. having a $5 or $10 minimum table instead of a $25 min table also made it more enjoyable. problems: the casino was mobbed saturday night, table was crammed with mostly field bettors young guys who don't really know the game. many kept asking me, what is the pass line? what are odds? most of the players came to the craps table because they were tired of three card poker, blackjack and pai gow. cheers, alan
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Alan Shank: [nq:1]about the cards: two shoes, one blue and one black, and they shuffle the cards after the shoe is played about one-quarter through. the shuffle is made after a 7-out so no "hot roll" or "hot hand" is distrubed.[/nq]This was the first method that I read about. It seems pretty stupid, though, having seen the way they do it at Colusa. When you have a shoe and don't shuffle for a while, the probabilities change slightly, so you don't retain the "probabilistic purity" of dice rolls. The down side of the Colusa method is that the boxman has to mix the cards around each time, which does slow the game down somewhat. [nq:1]the table is a regular craps table ready for any change in the law that will allow dice to be thrown in california[/nq] That's another difference - the table at Colusa is customized for card craps, with the 12 rectangles for the cards. I'm anxious to see what method they will use at Cache Creek, which opens its new casino today. [nq:1]some benefits of card craps: the traditional superstitions of dice no longer exist. you dont have to take your best ... your girlfriend coming back from the mall causing a seven out again because the dice won't see the shopping bags.[/nq] I'm sure that superstitious people can easily incorporate the cards into their "rules." After all, what does rational thought have to do with it? [nq:1]is it fun? not as fun as throwing. no more fifteen second spinners. no more blaming the dice for being cold. no more setting. no more dice control. it's now a card game.[/nq] Setting makes as much sense with cards as without. (None.) Seriously, the result on the dice is as important as ever, just indirectly. The "drama," however, is transferred to the turning of the cards. Cheers, Alan Shank
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Timmyrocker: [nq:2]the shuffle is made after a 7-out so no "hot roll" or "hot hand" is disturbed[/nq]No kidding Alan !!! Holy Craps ! i have not heard of this before... Can i correctly presume that no "charting" is allowed, and all the BJ no-card-counting rules are in place ? The casino pandering to the mystic superstition about "not disturbing or interupting a hot roll" leaves the casino making a foot-shooting dumb move in potentially allowing PENETRATION into the deck that would exceed what any blackjack table would dare to ever do. i shall schedule a trip to one of these joints to see if it is the conducted the way i infer from your descriptions here. True predictive advantage can be applied to several types of systems to great profit potential, no ?
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Timmyrocker: Hoo boy... i called Casino Morongo.20 ... T W E N T Y "decks" in play to assure no counting. "alternately drawing from two different shoes, each shoe has ten 'decks' of cards" They must be some fearfully cautious folks, even blackjack usually needs no more than 6 or 8 decks to make the casino happy about randomization.
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John Kerr: Re: Played card craps at casino morongoGroup: rec.gambling.craps Date: Tue, Apr 6, 2004, 8:16am (CDT+5) From: (Email Removed) (Timmyrocker) Hoo boy... i called Casino Morongo. 20 ... T W E N T Y "decks" in play to assure no counting."alternately drawing from two different shoes, each shoe has ten 'decks' of cards" They must be some fearfully cautious folks, even blackjack usually needs no more than 6 or 8 decks to make the casino happy about randomization. == But, if that 10 decks is just 6 cards per deck, ace thru six..hmm 60 cards per deck doesn't seem like any big challenge for a count system? JB
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MoneyLA: To prevent card counting they reshuffle the shoe after about one quarter or one fifth of the shoe has been played.you dont stand a chance with counting. actually, I was going to try counting and then lay the 4 or 10 if enough aces and sixes had passed. but with the reshuffle so quick, there was no chance to play this system. cheers, alan
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Alan Shank: [nq:1]No kidding Alan !!! Holy Craps ! i have not heard of this before... Can i correctly presume that no "charting" is allowed, and all the BJ no-card-counting rules are in place ?[/nq]The first descriptio I saw of "Carde Craps" mentioned a "continuous shuffle" machine; I don't know what that is or how it works. I am not the original poster of this thread; I did not see this method, so I don't know what rules they have in/re counting, charting, etc. I don't know how many "decks" of A-6 they use. [nq:1]The casino pandering to the mystic superstition about "not disturbing or interupting a hot roll" leaves the casino making a foot-shooting dumb move in potentially allowing PENETRATION into the deck that would exceed what any blackjack table would dare to ever do.[/nq] The original description I saw also talked about dealing 3 or 4 cards, face down, then using the die to "point" to the first card turned over. This way, you see only two of the three or four cards removed from the deck, which reduces your knowledge of the remainder. There is also supposed to be a joker in the deck, which takes on the value of the first card turned over, so that card is "replaced." You can also bet on the joker. [nq:1]i shall schedule a trip to one of these joints to see if it is the conducted the way i infer from your descriptions here. True predictive advantage can be applied to several types of systems to great profit potential, no ?[/nq] Probably not. The Cache Creek expansion just opened yesterday. In today's Sacramento Bee, there was a picture of the craps table. It showed a shoe right in front of the stickperson, so I guess they use the shoe method, rather than the, IMO, superior method used at Colusa. I will be visiting Cache Creek soon, and will report on how it's done. I'm not sure whether I will play there, though. It depends. In any case, once I see how it actually works, I should be able to figure whether any advantage could be gained by keeping track of those cards that have been turned over before the deck is re-shuffled. Cheers, Alan Shank
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Alan Shank: [nq:1]To prevent card counting they reshuffle the shoe after about one quarter or one fifth of the shoe has ... I was going to try counting and then lay the 4 or 10 if enough aces and sixes had passed.[/nq]I pose a question, alan: how did you figure that the absence of ones and sixes would make the lay 4/10 a better bet? Don't tell me you used math? Horrors! Cheers, Alan Shank
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Timmyrocker: what... ? do they use A-6 cards as each "die" ?on the phone i had the impression more like they used regular poker cards 2 through Q as the outcomes of 2 through 12. That would require them to have six 7's, five 8's etc. in each "deck". Anyone know what they do ?
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Alan Shank: [nq:1]what... ? do they use A-6 cards as each "die" ? on the phone i had the impression more like ... That would require them to have six 7's, five 8's etc. in each "deck". Anyone know what they do ?[/nq]I would bet a lot that they just use A-6. If they did like you say, there would be no distinction between hard and easy numbers, etc. The description I read of Carde Craps indicated just A-6. That's what they do at Colusa, too, but they just use the twelve cards. This way, you have exactly the same combinations of outcomes and can have exactly the same bets. Cheers, Alan Shank
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