Razz - a card catching game?

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ruylopez:

Just some thoughts from someone who had never seen it played before it was on ESPN the other night. I hear the players lamenting it as a 'brutal game' and everyone here talking about it being a card-catching game, but that doesn't make sense to me.
I played around with twodimes.net and found that heads up in razz it's possible for some starting hands to be as much as 90+% favs over other hands. So what's the big difference? Exactly what is the poker game where you can expect your good starting hands to hold up more than that?

The only idiocyncratic 'brutal' thing I see is that it's possible to start with the best possible hand and end up with a piece of crud that can't even beat a KQ low. In stud if you start with rolled up aces you aren't losing to a trash hand. But really, isn't EVERY game a card catching game? Even in a community card game like holdem when you are way ahead you still need to catch a card that doesn't help someone else, even if you are a big favorite to do so.
Also, anyone know of anywhere you can play razz online? Looked like fun and I wouldn't my mucking around in it for some low-stakes entertainment.

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jham:

In games like Hold 'em you sometimes start with complete hands, i.e. AA you have a pair of aces. At the end of the hand you still have a pair of aces, which is still a good hand even with 5 cards out. When you start with A23 in razz, you have nothing. You could end up with a wheel, or you may end up playing a pair for low. Its more like big slick than pocket aces.
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ruylopez:

[nq:1]In games like Hold 'em you sometimes start with complete hands, i.e. AA you have a pair of aces. At ... a wheel, or you may end up playing a pair for low. Its more like big slick than pocket aces.[/nq]
But if you start with A23 you are +90% against paired hands, at least the ones I've checked. You'll never get anything close to that with AK in holdem.
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Lou Krieger:

[nq:1]Just some thoughts from someone who had never seen it played before it was on ESPN the other night. I ... a 'brutal game' and everyone here talking about it being a card-catching game, but that doesn't make sense to me.[/nq]
Me either. In my opinion, Razz is a game in which good players have a bigger edge over the fish than in any other poker game.
Lou Krieger
Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Poker For Dummies," at Royal Vegas Poker.
http://www.royalvegaspoker.com

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American Idle:

whenever i play Stud all of my hands magically turn into razz hands.
[nq:1]Just some thoughts from someone who had never seen it played before it was on ESPN the other night. I ... you can play razz online? Looked like fun and I wouldn't my mucking around in it for some low-stakes entertainment.[/nq]
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Teddykgb1414:

[nq:2]Just some thoughts from someone who had never seen it ... wouldn't my mucking around in it for some low-stakes entertainment.[/nq]
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Cheesey Mustache:

Pros definitely have an edge on that game over newcomers, but i'll trust two of the best pokerplayers in the world that Razz is the most annoying "poker" game ever devised. What did Lederer say? "Even when you win a big pot in Razz, you never feel as if you earned that pot." Never seen Howard Lederer in such a crabby mood on a poker table ever before. Maybe it was the game, or he was sitting alone on the table with two of the most notorious deadbeats in the poker community. With that being said, i wouldn't mind trying that game out on a low stakes internet site. I'd like to see HORSE or SHOE tourneys offered on the internet as well.

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Gregory Raymer:

What hands are 90% favorites over another starting hand, unless the dog hand is big trips or some such obvious garbage? Any hand that looks decent on 3rd street isn't that far behind any other hand, as far as I understand it. If I'm wrong, please post these big dog:big favorite match-ups.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

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ruylopez:

[nq:1]What hands are 90% favorites over another starting hand, unless the dog hand is big trips or some such obvious ... as far as I understand it. If I'm wrong, please post these big dog:big favorite match-ups. Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)[/nq]
Well, I was comparing to obvious garbage:
pokenum -mc 500 -r as 2d 5h - jc jd qs
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500 sampled outcomes cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV As 2d 5h 456082 91.22 43908 8.78 10 0.00 0.912 Qs Jc Jd 43908 8.78 456082 91.22 10 0.00 0.088
But even unpaired hands can be way behind just three cards in..

pokenum -mc 500 -r as 2d 5h - 6d tc qh
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500 sampled outcomes cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV As 2d 5h 402812 80.56 97107 19.42 81 0.02 0.806 Tc 6d Qh 97107 19.42 402812 80.56 81 0.02 0.194

pokenum -mc 500 -r as 2d 3h - jh 4c 8s
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500 sampled outcomes cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV As 2d 3h 364714 72.94 135205 27.04 81 0.02 0.730 8s 4c Jh 135205 27.04 364714 72.94 81 0.02 0.270

Even three to an eight low is a fair dog to the nuts..

pokenum -mc 500 -r as 2d 3h - 5h 7c 8s
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500 sampled outcomes cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV As 2d 3h 297212 59.44 202675 40.53 113 0.02 0.595 8s 7c 5h 202675 40.53 297212 59.44 113 0.02 0.405
Granted you will never have a big money domination like AA vs. KK but these starting hand odds don't seem that different than other games to me. Even if you have AA in holdem you need to 'catch' cards that don't make a better hand for someone else, right?
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Iceman:

When you look at hands people will actually play, they run very close in value. Unless they're forced all-in, nobody is going to start with JJQ or anything like that.
[nq:1]Even three to an eight low is a fair dog to the nuts.. pokenum -mc 500 -r as 2d 3h ... As 2d 3h 297212 59.44 202675 40.53 113 0.02 0.595 8s 7c 5h 202675 40.53 297212 59.44 113 0.02 0.405[/nq]
That's only a small advantage, and it's for the best possible starting hand against a truly mediocre hand. In holdem it's easy to have an 80%+ advantage preflop even when your opponent has a real hand. Even AA2 vs. KK6 is like 2/3.
[nq:1]Granted you will never have a big money domination like AA vs. KK but these starting hand odds don't seem ... you have AA in holdem you need to 'catch' cards that don't make a better hand for someone else, right?[/nq]
But the chance of anything drawing out on AA is very small - like 25% for a live suited connector, 20% for a lower pair, around 10% for two garbage cards, and less than 10% for Ax. Even if you knew your opponent had A23, you might chase with something like 876 as long as there was a significant ante.
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Razz - a card catching game?

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